Stan
|
What is it with Celtic..... and away games in Europe??
How come they just can't get a win. Admittedly tonight was a good team they were playing, but in the past, they have been playing teams that they'd expect to win against. And even if they didn't expect to win them, you'd think they'd get a result by now, given that they've played a fair amount now.
So what is it??
Tactics? (though they've had a fair few managers now, they can't ALL be playing the same tactics)
Are they just punching above their weight when at parkhead, and the atmosphere makes them play better, and that's why their home record is very good?
Psychological?
I find it weird that a team as good as Celtic just can't get a result away from home in the champs league, it's a shocking record.
|
Two Face
|
Our full backs are very average footballers.
Look at Rat and Srna tonight. Both were athletic, creative and full of hard tackling and good positioning. It's all down to training and natural ability. Their crossing was marvellous too. Rat was up and down that wing in one game more than Naylor in a full season.
The amount of money ploughed into Donestsk too was frightening and something Celtic, as a Corporation, can only dream of.
Strachan ballsed up tonight by not playing a holding midfielder (Hartley) until the second half where we actually tightened up.
We also have a very immobile striker pairred with a livewire in McDonald, who looks very very gutted at having such a lazy partner in JVOH.
I wouldn't say it's psycholigical. (sp ? Kafflik skoolz) regarding the away results. We can't seem to adapt to the opening spells of our away games at all in the CL. Bad preperation ? Bad tactics ? Bad luck ? It's certainly a mixture of those three things anyway.
I think it comes down to the fact that we are just a very small fish in a big Moneyspinning European Pond.
We do not have the finances, personnel or the talent to ever do anything decent in the CL.
Like the Czech, Greek , Norwegian or Romanian teams in the CL, we are the same.
We will always be in the shadows of the teams with the cash, who know how to make their mark on the big stage.
|
Stan
|
You're right.. but what you said mostly had to do with just tonights game.. it's more the bigger picture I'm interested in.. why in all the years of trying, Celtic can't produce a win away from home.. when Rangers have managed it with similar budget and standard of players, and I'd have thought any club in europe that's been involved as much as Celtic and Rangers will have managed it.
I'm not knocking celtic by the way, I'm genuinly curious as to what it is, or what people think it is.
Can't blame Strachan, as there have been other managers that have tried and failed.. and there have been tons of different players for Celtic playing in these games, so it's not the same personel.
Had this bad away run been over just a couple of seasons, with virtually the same squad, and manager, then that would perhaps be understandable, but it's not been, and that's what I don't get.
It could just purely be luck I guess. Could be a bit of a hoodoo over Celtic and the pressure of getting that monkey off their back might effect the players too.
Celtic and Rangers playing against clubs in europeI think is very much like a team like Dundee United in the SPL playing against Celtic or Rangers. But even then, the 'wee' teams still get the odd result.. yet Celtic can't seem to do it. (apart for United against celtic at parkhead.. less said about that the better!)
It's a strange one.
As for tonight, Celtic were very poor. Hartley was getting tore a new one right from the word go, and Brown was quite poor too I think, by his standards. If it wasn't for the keeper, and poor finishing.. it could have been a proper rout, it could quite easily have been 5-0 at half time.
Also.. cost me £85 quid tonight.. I had a fiver on Shakhtar to win 3-0 at 16/1!
|
Cappo
|
| Philly Leotardo wrote: |
We do not have the finances, personnel or the talent to ever do anything decent in the CL.
Like the Czech, Greek , Norwegian or Romanian teams in the CL, we are the same.
We will always be in the shadows of the teams with the cash, who know how to make their mark on the big stage. |
Aye, I've made that point to a couple of guys before too and they always hit out with the Rosenberg thing (who achieved as improbable a result as either Rangers or Celtic ever have in the Champions League away from home last night).
It's a fair point to a certain extent but there's always gonna be one or two teams who punch above their weight. It's been Rangers and Celtic on one or two occasions. We can't do it all the time though.
On Celtic's away form, it's a combination of very bad tactics, players that just aren't good enough and occasional bad luck.
I'd put it down to "just one of those football things"
Strachan was very naive last night I thought. He'd talked all week about exactly how SD would play and so had everyone else so to capitulate like that early on has to be laid at the managers feet.
Lawell's conned the Celtic fans this summer though. He promised massive investment and "blue chip signings" and it's not happened. Brown and Donati are decent, the others are no more than average SPL plodders.
I'd lay the away defeats at the managers (both Strachan and O'Neill's) door though. Only Advocaat at Rangers has really shown what it's like to have a coach with real technical ability.
O'Neill had a good team with one exceptional talent that could muscle bigger teams out of games but generally came up short.
Strachan's got a slightly less quality version of that.
Smith at Rangers (I think) only ever won one away CL game in their great run of 92-93. I don't think in all his other attempts he managed a win. McLeish didn't manage one at all, came close against Pana away but fell short.
Advocaats team of 99-00 was at least as good as O'Neill's Seville team and he managed a couple of away wins with quality managerial skills, not least in Monaco.
Rangers have only won 9 of their 44 CL games. While three of them have been away wins, it's not much better than Celtic's record.
|
Cappo
|
Here's Rangers away record.
cska moscow- won
marseille -draw
bruges - draw
grasshoppers - lost
auxerre - lost
ajax- lost
dortmund - draw
steau - lost
juventus- lost
monaco - won
galatasary - lost
sturm graz - lost
bayern - lost
valencia - lost
psv - won
man u - lost
stuttgart - lost
panathanikos - draw
porto - draw
inter milam - lost
artmedia - draw
I make it in group games ONLY (not including Villareal away in the last 16) we have played 21
won 3
drawn 6
lost 12
If we could beat the big team at home once in every three games even, it'd make a huge difference to us. We usually fall just short through not being able to take maximum points of the top seed at home.
|
johnnyk
|
I don't think we should be too harsh on Celtic last night. They got caught in the blocks and were playing a very very good side. Leaves them in the same position as they were in last year after the Man U game.
In terms of the more general away results question - when looking at Celtic's performance in away games you also have to think about how the other team approaches it as a home game. Most European teams would expect to beat a Scottish team at home, and would therefore play with the sort of confidence that you saw last night. Add to that the mentality in the CL that you will qualify if you win your home games and pick up 1 point in the three away games. Last year Celtic were looking to get the away point against Copenhagen, this year it would have been against Benfica bearing in mind the money that Shakhtar have spent and the players that Benfica have lost.
I do think there is a little bit of psychology involved with Celtic in that they think no matter what team they are playing they will get a win at Parkhead. Means that they possibly concentrate less on the preparation for the away game and get caught cold. I think there's less of that at Rangers - at the moment they are a more defensive unit and I think while they will probably perform better than Celtic away they will also find it harder to kill a game off at home - the Belgrade game perhaps being a good example.
Having said all that I would be surprised if Celtic get two wins at Parkhead this season - that team last night was strong in possession, strong defensively and on the counter attack as well - that is the sort of team, like Milan, that will get results home and away. And in the same strip as well! For me it is between Benfica and Celtic for the UEFA cup place.
|
Cappo
|
| johnnyk wrote: | | I don't think we should be too harsh on Celtic last night. They got caught in the blocks and were playing a very very good side. Leaves them in the same position as they were in last year after the Man U game. |
differnce then was they had two of the easier teams coming to Parkhead then.
Now they've got to take 3 points off AC in the next game before going to Benfica. The heads could be well and truly down after the first three games.
| johnnyk wrote: |
Most European teams would expect to beat a Scottish team at home, and would therefore play with the sort of confidence that you saw last night.
. |
Most would but not Rosenberg or any of the other smaller teams Celtic have failed against away from home.
Found out something interesting this morning too. For all the money Shaktar have spent, they're not net spenders this summer.
Tymoshuk - to St Petersburg 15 million euros - (january trfr)
Ciprian - to Stuttgart - 10 million Euro's
Elano to Man city - 8 million quid
Matuzalem - to Zaragoza - currently taking legal action against them as he was under contract. Bought for 9M quid 3 years ago - was club captain and best player - estimated fee 15 million euro's
Still I agree in the main with you JK. Celtic are confident of beating anyone at home and more often than not, if they're not winning the game, they're getting at least a draw with the big guns at home.
Rangers haven't been beaten in 12 home Euro games for anyone who cares.
|
Bob
|
| Stan wrote: |
Also.. cost me £85 quid tonight.. I had a fiver on Shakhtar to win 3-0 at 16/1! |
That offside decisions a bit of a sickener then, eh?
|
johnnyk
|
Yeah as I said I think it will come down to the games against Benfica for a UEFA place as while they lost the first match last year I agree that the group this year is much harder than it was last year with Shakhtar effectively replacing Copenhagen and not Man U. Although having said that Milan failed to score in 180 minutes home and away against Celtic last year and only beat Benfica 2-1 last night so you never know! Was raging they scored with the last kick as I have Dida in my fantasy team...
|
Stan
|
| Bob wrote: | | Stan wrote: |
Also.. cost me £85 quid tonight.. I had a fiver on Shakhtar to win 3-0 at 16/1! |
That offside decisions a bit of a sickener then, eh? |
Just a tad, aye.. thankfully, the bet was placed for me by my step dad, so I didn't know anything about it till after the match.
Still not a patch on the £4500 I lost out on a few years ago though.. not that I'm bitter or anything.. fooking rangers.. just had to beat dundee.. chunts.
|
Two Face
|
Thing is.
Although that was never offside, if Donestsk made it 3-0 last night, it would have ended up 5 or 6 afterwards.
As I said to Ross last night, I wasn't raging or frustrated after that result.
I'm just glad to be competing there.
I believe that is our level.
Just being happy to be there.
Need to be realistic.
Unless we invest money in that team, we will always be aiming low.
|
Cappo
|
I was just telling JK about that on Sunday.
You called for a score update just as Dundee were scoring. I think Vidmar equalised after about 78 minutes but your phone was off by then.
|
Fionn Makool
|
How many teams actually win a bagfull of gameas away from home in the CL? Unites, Liverpool, Milan... all of them have come up a cropper away from homw in the CL. Its a difficult theatre of operations and Celtic certainly shouldn't be decried over their inability to win games away. there are not many teams that do
|
Cappo
|
| Fionn Makool wrote: | | How many teams actually win a bagfull of gameas away from home in the CL? Unites, Liverpool, Milan... all of them have come up a cropper away from homw in the CL. Its a difficult theatre of operations and Celtic certainly shouldn't be decried over their inability to win games away. there are not many teams that do |
That very question was raised in the pub last night Vinny. Paul was making the point that there's not alot of away wins in the CL which is a fair reflection.
I had a look at last years group stages and a fifth to a quarter of the games resulted in away wins. Think it was 23 in 96 games. I didn't break it down into seeds to see how that divided things but I'd imagine most of the away wins were pot one and two teams beating the lower teams.
I don't think anyone's expecting Celtic to be better than average but they're currently picking up 2.5% of away points when it should be around 20-25%.
Particularly given the fact they are now a pot 2 team. They've been 3 seeds on a number of occasions and that should see them fairing better than they have.
|
|
|
|